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Inquiry into the Use of Electronic Cigarettes and Personal Vaporisers

Discussion in 'Politics, News, Media, Campaigns' started by Nico and Laughter, May 25, 2017.

  1. The Vaper

    The Vaper I Vape ∴ I Am

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2015
    Location:
    Sydney 2016
    Pfft... He is an elected representative of the highest level control structure in Australia, what else would we expect him to say?
     
  2. Nico and Laughter

    Nico and Laughter Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2015
    Location:
    Wollongong the brave!
    I get that people are a bit guarded about this. Me too. I can't promise this will be the one. What I can tell you is that a very committed group of doctors including Dr Mendehlson have been visiting Canberra pretty regularly discussing vaping for a very long time.

    The day we filmed 60 minutes Dr M was going back to Canberra with Dr Palosa to talk to the pollies again.

    It hasn't quite come out of nowhere. It may not be a sure thing but it's definitely worth getting behind.
     
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  3. Pippi

    Pippi Admin Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2015
    Location:
    Victoria
    I dont think you will need to dig too deep - haven't seen you so inspired for yonks!
    Plus you can come over here for one of our Tea & Scone teetotaler catch ups and help me with mine :winky:
     
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  4. Pippi

    Pippi Admin Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2015
    Location:
    Victoria
    I think if we all work at it and share rather than putting it all on the NNA and perhaps if we share as ordinary Vapers - there might be a chance to reach those that think "someone" else will do it.
    There is no way I wont do it this time :)
     
  5. Donna

    Donna Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2015
    I/We (the NNA AU) have met with more than half of the Committee members and Colin and Alex have done so too. I'm very confident at least they will all be going into this with a positive slant. Obviously Party positions will not reflect necessarily the individual members positions but here's hoping.

    This is very positive and it's hopeful that all vapers will tell their story.

    Your story is the most important thing, don't worry too much about the terms of reference, just tell your story. A sentence, a paragraph or a whole page or two. YOUR STORY IS IMPORTANT.
     
  6. The Vaper

    The Vaper I Vape ∴ I Am

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2015
    Location:
    Sydney 2016
    I think this has a better chance than some of the previous government inspired (e.g. nanny state inquiry) or citizen initiated (e.g. rescheduling of nic.) efforts.
    • For one thing, it is its own inquiry rather than being lumped in with an inquiry which seemed more about letting the public have a whinge about the nanny state.
    • Next, it was called by the health minister (if I understand correctly) as opposed to the leader of a marginal party (Leyonhjelm's party. I appreciate his efforts, but he is outside the main power structures when it comes to getting things done in Canberra).
    • That.. Grass roots advocacy by citizens is great, but I think that meetings with pollies in Canberra, and by people like Colin, Ricardo, Attila & Donna, etc. will end up having far more legs. Pollies are much more conducive to responding positively (& listening carefully) in private than having something shouted at them through a megaphone (with the resulting innuendo that they are corrupt mongrels who need to be shouted at in public, in order to get things done). I was impressed by the meeting with the shadow health minister and the pollies that showed up to the afternoon tea in Canberra. Even though I got the impression that the actual important meetings had already happened before I joined the group (of Donna, Attila, Alex Wodak & Colin).
    On the other hand:
    • This inquiry might not be the one that cracks it wide open. I sure hope it will, but I'm not putting 'all my eggs' in that basket.
    • Even if it does succeed, we still need to bring each state around to common sense, and actually get them to repeal laws that they took time to draft & enact. Added to that there are the antis in the state governments to bring around.
    • Snus & HNB! I realise that a lot of folks are concentrating on e-cigs, but snus and Heat-Not-Burn could become important aspects of Tobacco Harm Reduction. 'Normalising' and enshrining THR should (I think) be a priority, given that's what the pollies will ultimately be convinced on. Some good people I know could not remain smoke free without snus, and I think that HNB is important for two reasons. 1) Giving tobacco companies a reason not to try and sabotage e-cigs, by providing them with a vital income stream to replace combustible tobacco. (Sure they make e-cigs, including some with refillable tanks, but my view is that it is mostly for show - they have the funds to throw 10s of millions into development of devices purely for the potential propaganda 'we tried'.) 2) Some smokers are loyal to tobacco companies, but more importantly, are just not satisfied by e-cigs.
    Ultimately I'd hate to see people putting all their faith in this one inquiry. And should it fail to conclude what we know to be true, or perhaps worse, succeed but then fail to gain any real change in law.. abandon advocacy in disillusionment.

    Like I mentioned earlier, this is one battle in a war of attrition I'm confident we'll win. But it just might not be this battle that wins the war - even if we win the battle.

    And just to clarify, I figure the NNA AU effort to get nicotine rescheduled is in part responsible for this inquiry. If I were a pollie and had a citizen's group hassling me to enact change that is ostensibly in the control of the TGA, my advice to them would be "Ask the TGA (first)". Now that the TGA failed to see the light, pollies are realising it is up to them to make a decision that takes it out of the hands of the TGA. The proposal was not wasted effort, it was ..munitions for later battles.
     
  7. Donna

    Donna Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2015
    That is exactly what we have planned. It's now coming to fruition. The Inquiry has been lobbied for since and now is happening.

    As you know, the common comment by the ANTZ is "we'll support it when approved by the TGA". You heard it yourself Andrew in a meeting.

    We all need to make sure when we submit that we say we all use different devices and eliquid and nic strengths. Otherwise, they'll suggest a one size fits all approach. It can't be medicalised.
     
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  8. Jennifer

    Jennifer Pyjama Queen

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2015
    Location:
    Perth
    That was for submissions to the TGA I think, or that's the only one I remember doing.
    http://www.vapercafeaustralia.com/t...-to-tga-as-a-vaper-consumer-stakeholder.3640/

    But I think the most important thing is to tell your story, I really do. If they got swamped with stories from vapers who have quit smoking that's powerful. They have to read all of them, and they have to accept them.

    1. It looks like you have to create an account first, so that you can lodge it online on their website. You can do that here: https://www.aph.gov.au/Help/Register

    2. You can type up your story in a Word document and save it to your computer to upload to the website.

    3. Before you upload here's a checklist from the website:
    Submission checklist
    Before lodging your submission you may find it helpful to consider the following checklist:
    • Has my submission been written for the purposes of the inquiry?
    • Have I checked that this is not material that has been published previously?
    • Have I commented on some or all of the terms of reference?
    • Have I provided a summary of the submission at the front and numbered the pages (for lengthy submissions)
    • Have I provided my return postal or email address andcontact details with the submission?
    • Have I ensured that my personal details are excluded from the body of the submission?
    • If the submission contains confidential information, have I made this clear on the front of the submission and included reasons for requesting confidentiality?

    4. The terms of reference are pretty broad here; http://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary...Sport/ElectronicCigarettes/Terms_of_Reference So you could pick the last one 'Any other related matter', use that in a heading as the term of reference you are addressing, and go ahead and tell your story!

    Something, no matter how small, is better than nothing. And we do live in a democracy after all (or so they tell us) so your word, no matter if it's not fancy, is just as valid as the smartest professor or scientist.

    And don't forget; those politicians sitting on that committee work for you! You pay them, you elect them to do the job of representing your concerns and wishes. It is your fundamental right to comment, and their fundamental responsibility to take it seriously!

    So go for it. :)
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2017
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  9. Donna

    Donna Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2015
    I agree with you about HnB as being positive but the negative thing is that they, PMI are happy with comparable pricing with smokes. This is evidenced in the UK.

    In OZ where we are a high taxing, high Tobacco Company pricing country (cost before tax), it means that there is no financial advantage. In my mind, if that's the way PMI want to go, well that is fine BUT, vaping should not be excise taxed at all. The fall back position might be 5% excise taxation because of the evidence to date but that is it. Even 5% can become a slippery slope so we should fight for NO excise taxation at all.
     
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  10. The Vaper

    The Vaper I Vape ∴ I Am

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2015
    Location:
    Sydney 2016
    BTW - I tweeted about this inquiry..


    For those that "don't twitter" - I adapted the title of Colin's article to use hashtags for the relevant bits & added (of #Australia) for the clarity of an international audience. It has got some retweets (important for coverage) 16 so far, some from people with (far) more followers than me.

    For those that "do Twitter", please retweet if you have not already done so.

    I'll try to do a follow up in mid June.
    Good point, I probably would not have gone into that, but will now, in my 'personal introductory blurb'. It is now a bullet point in my submission. Well OK.. in all honesty, it is the first and only bullet point in the submission I decided to start planning right now. ;)
    I hear ya.. Perhaps PMI is prepared to factor that into their business plan, but maybe they'll change their mind and argue parity with e-cigs if we can get e-cigs legislated as completely outside tobacco (i.e. no excise). In any case, I agree in large part with your 'no excise' view. I'd personally be prepared to wear a 5-10% 'research new product' tax, but see how that might a) be 'adjusted upwards' over time, and.. b) be confused with implying that e-cigs are only a little bit bad.

    I'm going to avoid mentioning tax at all in this submission. I'll leave it to others to fight that fight as they see fit.

    Huh.. thought I'd already posted this but don't see it in the thread and it keeps showing (as a 'post in edit') on each new page I open. My apologies if it appears twice.
     
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  11. Dr Attila Danko

    Dr Attila Danko V.I.P.

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2015
     
  12. Dr Attila Danko

    Dr Attila Danko V.I.P.

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2015
    Now, on a more serious note: what changed the debate about medical cannabis in politics? Was it the best scientific evidence? Was it endless debates about gateways and toxins? When we went to Canberra the first time were they interested in the briefcase of evidence I had? I never opened it once. They wanted to hear the STORIES.
    It was parents with children with terrible incurable epilepsy. It was this story. They went to the politicians and talked to them. For an idea of how powerful this was, watch this video.

    And this one too


    So shall it be with us. Our authentic stories will swing the debate much more than the science. The usefulness of the science is that it gives us the unshakeable confidence in our story and makes it even more powerful. But the science is actually secondary.
     
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  13. Posterboy

    Posterboy Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2015
    Location:
    Ballarat
    I too am worried about the States. Federal recommendations should carry, but not sure how that works.
    At the very least, if vaping is not recognised as smoking or tobacco use, it should not be treated as such by any State or sock puppet like Quitvic. It gives the wrong impression of vaping.
     
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  14. The Vaper

    The Vaper I Vape ∴ I Am

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2015
    Location:
    Sydney 2016
    I doubt even the states and federal governments are sure how it works. A great example is cannabis legislation & two contrasting localities, the US and Australia..

    United States

    The federal government still lists cannabis as a dangerous poison, whereas many of the states are forging ahead with legalisation of medical, and in some case recreational, cannabis use.

    The federal government can send in their enforcement agencies to raid cannabis retailers, but has been relatively lax in doing so. The latest Trump government failed to make a definitive decision on the matter, but assigned $0 to the enforcement!

    Australia


    It's almost diametrically opposite in Australia! The federal government has legalised medical cannabis use, but left it to the states to implement the details.

    The states are putting up as many road blocks as they can to thwart people getting access to it. One stunning example was Queensland Health (surprise, surprise) recently who refused medical cannabis for a terminally ill child on the basis that it 'might' cause ..brain damage.

    :mad::wall::mad:

    ____________________________________________

    I wish there were more options to haul governments & ministers before the courts.

    It seems the major basis for interaction and alignment between federal & state agencies & law is 'negotiation'. Having said that, if we can get THR written into federal law it gives us more basis for putting pressure on the states. If we can get nicotine rescheduled it removes the states throwaway line that they have to ban it to comply with federal law.
    States will no longer have anywhere to hide and we can hound them relentlessly. :soapbox::spank: :finger:
     
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  15. Nico and Laughter

    Nico and Laughter Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2015
    Location:
    Wollongong the brave!
    And we will.
     
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  16. margyb

    margyb Great Balls of Fire

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2015
    Location:
    Lindisfarne Tasmania
    The funny thing is in Tasmania in the latest RIS on ecigarettes they said e- cigs are not tobacco products.
    But then they wanted to classify the act of vaping was to be classified as smoking as it was easier to put that as amendments in current health act.

    We need a new act and regulations specifically for harm reduction with e -cigs
    Not have vaping lumped in with tobacco acts
     
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  17. Nico and Laughter

    Nico and Laughter Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2015
    Location:
    Wollongong the brave!
    Yep, in my submission I want to point out that they aren't tobacco products and they aren't medicine they are tobacco harm reduction products and consumer products. And they need a separate catagory with its own set of rules and regulations.
     
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  18. The Vaper

    The Vaper I Vape ∴ I Am

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2015
    Location:
    Sydney 2016
    Yeah.. if I could think of an appropriate graphic to go with it, that'd be a candidate for the "They had one job.." meme.
     
  19. The Vaper

    The Vaper I Vape ∴ I Am

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2015
    Location:
    Sydney 2016
    Not sure if you mean haul them into court or hound them relentlessly (or both). But strongly approve of any of those possibilities.. :thumbup:
     
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  20. margyb

    margyb Great Balls of Fire

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2015
    Location:
    Lindisfarne Tasmania
    Well how can you smoke something if it is not a tobacco product?
    herbal smokes and dope yes and prisoners smoke patches an tea leaves mixed

    Nonsensical people in health dept I think
     
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