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Ni200 vs Ti Gr1

Discussion in 'Temperature Control' started by Noe, Jul 18, 2015.

  1. Noe

    Noe Adorably quirky ... QUIRKY Noe! VCA Approved Post Whore

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    I heard some interesting information about Nickel wire, that it is potentially not as safe as we may have been led to believe.
    Titanium is also not without its own potential hazards, if heated high enough it can potentially turn into harmful oxides, although under normal vaping conditions this should not occur.
    These are the 2 main types of wire in use for Temperature Control, I am sure there are vapers experimenting with other types of wire & Titanium itself is not widely used, Nickel is most likely used in over 95% of TC set ups.

    While there are some potential risks, I don't think there is any need for panic or alarm at this stage.
    However, knowing the risks is never a bad thing & you can decide for yourself if TC is for you or not, just as you can decide for yourself whether to use flavorings or not (which are still potentially more of a risk).
    The idea of this thread is to inform & to discuss the pros & cons of the wires used in TC.

    This does however beg the question, how safe is Ni200 wire when used in a vaping device?
    From what I remember of what I heard, the concern is that Nickel may be being leached into juice & vaporised, then inhaled when vaping.
    If that is the case, then aerosol-ed metal particles are entering our lungs, our lungs were not designed to handle metal particles very well, this is where the concern is.
    At this stage, it is more speculation than fact, which is based upon the premise that if you can taste a metallic taste, then there is likely metal in the aerosol.
    If we go back in time a few years, there was debate about Nichrome & Kanthal, as the best choice for resistance wire, back then Kanthal was new, Nichrome was the common metal used in pre-made coils.
    Rebuilders, mainly chose Kanthal because it was "cleaner tasting", this is due to the same metal in Nichrome as in Ni200 - Nickel.
    Many vapers, including myself, can taste the Nickel in Nichrome, when used in vaping. Many are also saying they can taste the Nickel in Ni200 TC builds/devices.
    Further research needs to be done, to determine if this is actually the case & if so at what levels Nickel metal is in the aerosol(s).

    Titanium's problem seems to be more about dry burning or when making the coil initially & "glowing" the coil to help it form. When heating Titanium above a certain temperature, it is possible to create carcinogenic oxides.
    There is another potential issue with Titanium, that it can spontaneously combust, if heated too high.
    Both of these issues have a lot to do with the grade of titanium being used, from what I understand.
    Grade 1 Titanium, has a very low oxygen "impurity" inclusion, making it harder for it to form oxides of the type we want to avoid, it also makes it nearly impossible to make it instantaneously combust, in our applications.
    However under normal vaping conditions, provided there is none of the oxides already present, Titanium would seem to be the safer alternative. Our bodies handle Titanium much better than they do Nickel & it is believed there is a lower chance for Titanium to hitch a ride on the vapor we inhale.

    So there are potential risks with both wire types but until more research is done, we won't know just how much risk is involved.
    What we do know is that a Dry Hit from a non -TC build is very unpleasant & this is due in part to formaldehyde & carbon monoxide, both of which are potentially more harmful than the risks associated with using either of these wires.
    I still believe Temperature Control is a step forward for vaping & is lowering the risks overall, still it is not without its potential drawbacks.

    I do not claim to be an expert in the hazards of wire choice/use, so if any of the above info/speculation is incorrect please correct it.
     
  2. KITTY

    KITTY Senior Member

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    Can I ask if you can explain why they don't use Kanthal in TC mode? My understanding is that kanthal can take over 1000 degrees?
    And I agree on using TI, from what I've researched anything with nickel in it is not a good choice.
     
  3. DaveJ

    DaveJ I Vape

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    Well, it gets very techie very quickly. But trying to be simple....

    The tricky chips that do the work need to identify from the coil wire what temp it is running at. At the present, the chips do this by measuring the tiny changes in resistance that happen when temperature of the wire changes. The amount of resistance variation is measured and compared to known change rates for the metal concerned. Each type of metal changes resistance differently in response to known heat changes. Kanthal very, very little. Ni and Ti though, vary quite a bit more.

    They have big difficulties in measuring the minute changes in Kanthal accurately - at least so far in devices cheap enough to be included in consumer level Vaping devices. Which is why it isn't yet offered.

    Although, in time it may be offered with Kanthal. Just sorta depends on what the techie types in the development labs can come up with.
     
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  4. KITTY

    KITTY Senior Member

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    Thank you Dave, I found no-one really gives an understandable answer.
    So really really simple answer - on TC using Kanthal the electronic chips can't detect the minute heat changes Kanthal gives.?
     
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  5. DaveJ

    DaveJ I Vape

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    Not quite. But you are on the right track. This is it:
    "electronic chips can't detect the minute resistance changes Kanthal gives"


    Basically Kanthal changes too little to be accurately read by the chips currently available. Ti & Ni change more and can be read by the chips.

    I'm sure, in time, they'll figure it out.
     
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  6. Noe

    Noe Adorably quirky ... QUIRKY Noe! VCA Approved Post Whore

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    From what I have read/heard, the explanation by Dave is only partly correct.
    The relationship between resistance & temperature for Ni & Ti wires is linear & easy to graph/calculate. While the changes in resistance are small, if you start with a known resistance, at a known temperature, then as that temperature changes, so does the resistance, in a very predictable manner.
    That same relationship in Kanthal wire is non-linear, not as easy to calculate or graph.

    This is why Kanthal was not the wire of choice for Evolv, the original chip manufacturers that brought the concept to vaping & since Ni wire was easier to calculate & progrom algorithms for than Ti, Ni was their wire of choice (and still is even in their latest chip).
    Chinese chip manufacturers, mostly copied Evolv's work but also ironed out some of the bugs in their own chips that the Evolv chips were found to have, added their own brand of functionality in some cases & improved upon Evolvs work in some cases.
    Some of the newer Chinese chips can now calculate Ti algorithms, as well as Ni algorithms, however accuracy from chip brand to chip brand can vary.
    When users say "this mod feels like it is not heating as much as this mod" the chip in one is certainly not as accurate as the other, chips that have Ti mode, seem to have the widest variability in accuracy.
     
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  7. emu

    emu Banned

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    what's the thoughts on ceramic coils, are there any good choices with them and what wire would be in a ceramic coil...?
     
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  8. Noe

    Noe Adorably quirky ... QUIRKY Noe! VCA Approved Post Whore

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    Never tried any but from what I heard about the "vapin donuts", a ceramic coil that was round with a hole like a donut. They were not that great & only useful in some atties.
     
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  9. KITTY

    KITTY Senior Member

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    Thanks meqanic, For a sec there I thought, NOOOOOOOOOO not another choice!!!!!!! :facepalm:
     
  10. emu

    emu Banned

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    When they first emerged I bought a Iciga BDC Pro and it made a really nice taste but the tank fell apart, I was vaping pg then but maybe ceramic is no good for vg being so thick, just thought they might of been improved since then but they're probably out of date by now.
     
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  11. emu

    emu Banned

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    yeah kitty I am ready to buy a new tank and box just to keep up with the fad, to much to choose from and can't make up my mind, don't want to waste money just want to enjoy a good vape.
     
  12. Noe

    Noe Adorably quirky ... QUIRKY Noe! VCA Approved Post Whore

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    Yeah I sort of liked the concept of ceramic coated coils & thought they may have been better than reports said they were but the limited applications & the not so great performance put me off of trying them.
    Along come TC mods & Ti wire, which seem to me to achieve everything that ceramic coils were but are much more flexible in their applications.
    So I think ceramic coils was one of those "flash in the pan" ideas & is never going to gain a lot of popularity.
     
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  13. DaveJ

    DaveJ I Vape

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    Thanks fellas.... I sorta knew talking about this would draw out the tech heads who actually know about and have used that new fangled fancy TC stuff....

    @KITTY - really, really simple answer why TC doesn't use Kanthal is they haven't been able to make it work properly yet.


    And...vaping donuts? Na. You eat them WITH your vape! :)
     
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  14. emu

    emu Banned

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    I'll banish the thought of them, ya better keep that "flash" thing down if kitty hears ya she'll go all funny on ya
     
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  15. emu

    emu Banned

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  16. emu

    emu Banned

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  17. KITTY

    KITTY Senior Member

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    Dare I ask the next question.........I do!!

    Can I recoil the protank with TI wire? Or do I have to get different tanks? I've been offered the use of a TC mod and was wondering.
     
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  18. Noe

    Noe Adorably quirky ... QUIRKY Noe! VCA Approved Post Whore

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    You could but why you'd want to is the real question.
    There are much better tanks available for making your own coils on, usually called RTAs, trying to rebuild protank coils is far more difficult than rebuilding on an RTA deck.

    Edit:
    I'd recommend the Lemo II RTA, it's very easy to build on & I have reviewed it with a rebuilding guide here: http://www.vapercafeaustralia.com/threads/eleaf-lemo-ii-rta-review-build-guide-goblin-comparison.35/
     
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  19. DaveJ

    DaveJ I Vape

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    Of course.

    Dare you hear our replies? :)


    *looks around nervously knowing the "techies" will jump if I get the slightest thing wrong*

    I do believe you can. With qualification.

    Your mod doesn't actually care about the type of topper on it. So long as the wire meets specs and isn't shorting out, your TC mod will "fire" the coil. What that coil is mounted in really doesn't matter.

    SO make sure your coil is wound with the proper wire type. Make sure it is sound - doesn't have any shorts. Make sure it is within the right specs (correct resistance for the wire and mod types) and it ought to run just fine.

    HOWEVER - as to what those specs are that you should wind your coil, and what metal to use, how many coils and so on - I've no idea! :)

    What I can say, though, is that coil head in a protank/evod (same coils) is not very big - and it is very fiddly messing with them. They might also have issue with the silicon grommets that trap the wire within the coil head overheating and burning....

    SO in theory should be right. In practice maybe just too messy/fiddly and small to work really well.

    Hopefully some TC person steps in right about now.......
     
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  20. emu

    emu Banned

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    Well thanks Dave, you do mean Totally Cool. ........ yeah? :clap:
     
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